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Topic: Combat Changes |
Title: Site Admin
Posts: 477
Joined: 03 Apr 2005
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Date Posted: Tue Feb 20, 2007 11:10 am
Subject: Combat Changes
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In order to make it possible to perform extra actions in combat, combat has been slowed from a pass every second, to 1 round ever 3 seconds. The long standing bug of the person you attack always getting the first strike has also been eliminated with this, as it waits until the start of the next phase to decide initiative.
Also, magic users have been balanced a little due to spells now requiring a pass to be cast. Now, when you try and cast a spell in combat it will queue until your next initiative pass, at which time it will be cast. Doing this forfeits any other attack you may be able to do.
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Title: Member
Posts: 297
Joined: 17 Dec 2005
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Date Posted: Tue Feb 20, 2007 11:37 am
Subject: Hmm
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First reaction: Wow... The MUD sure is lagging...
*Reads the MOTD*
Second reaction: Hmm... And now i'm wishing it was lag..
I do like the the idea, sorta, but its certainly gonna take some getting used to.
So what about initiative rolls at the starting of combat when offensive spells are used? Talk about balance, being able to chop the mage in half who is ready to fry your ass before he gets the chance sounds good to me.
I can see how many more spells can/could be used during combat now that it isn't zipping by as spam, but it doesn't do a damn bit of good if you never even get to enter combat because the person you're fighting casts a manabolt at the beginning 
That would add real balance, in my opinion, or are spells 'supposed' to work instantaneously? voiding initiative and what not, i'm not really familiar with the rules concerning it.
-----signature-----
Therefor, your mechanism of material better be sickly, or let your lead spread incredibly quickly.
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Title: Fixer
Posts: 206
Joined: 21 May 2006
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Date Posted: Tue Feb 20, 2007 12:13 pm
Subject:
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I haven't tested the new spellcasting in combat coding yet but I do see a slight problem with it. Only in that a magic user can still only cast as fast as it takes him/her to type in the command to cast a spell. Even using aliases that puts them at a disadvantage due to losing regular attacks while spellcasting effects are in queue.
-----signature-----
Insanity is a state of mind, I'm merely the governer.
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Title: Neophyte
Posts: 3
Joined: 26 Jan 2007
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Date Posted: Tue Feb 20, 2007 12:58 pm
Subject:
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I say no to Vile's suggestion, because the group of players that actually gets hurt the most is not the overpowered mages, but the newbie mages just starting to earn a living in the Sprawl.
Most mages straight out of chargen have very poor initiative(unless of a certain build+race). Coding in a initiative roll when casting offensive spells would 1. result in newbie mages resorting to ranged weapons to survive 2. negate invis+stealth for mages when attacking (would be better to code in what Nico said for illusion perception tests) 3. unfairly discriminate against slower races when making a magic user
This, on top of drain problems that most mages face at the start, would perhaps make starting a mage too difficult for the casual player
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Title: Member
Posts: 273
Joined: 18 Dec 2006
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Date Posted: Tue Feb 20, 2007 3:27 pm
Subject:
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There's also the fact that spellcasters in Shadowrun don't need to gesture or chant arcane incantations. Unless the person you're casting the spell at is currently dual, they shouldn't have the chance to attack the mage before the spell goes off, because they won't even know that you're casting a spell.
By the way, Che, I LIKE the new combat turns. Cheers.
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Title: Member
Posts: 386
Joined: 21 Feb 2006
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Date Posted: Tue Feb 20, 2007 3:33 pm
Subject:
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Vile, it sounds like you don't have a complaint per se, so much as 'good but not good enough'. Mages can still fry you if they cast first, this is true, but that is one of their small handful of saving graces, so I'm not that worried about it.
Adding initiative to offensive spells, without giving them range, would be disasterous. Most mages simply can't get the init numbers an adept or a sammie eventually can.
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Title: Fixer
Posts: 213
Joined: 16 Apr 2005
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Date Posted: Tue Feb 20, 2007 5:22 pm
Subject:
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I am seeing quite a bit of discussion from people who are commenting on what they think they read in che's post and havent tested anything. here are a few logs to show what has actually happened. the attacker in this case has an initiative of 6 +1d6
<10P> cast 2 stun m lone
You fail to bind the mana to your will.
<10P> cast 2 stun m lone
You fail to bind the mana to your will.
cast 2 stun m lone
A Lone Star police officer shakes his head forcibly as though trying to clear it.
<10P>
A Lone Star police officer tries to shoot you, but misses.
<10P>
You attempt to close the distance!
A Lone Star police officer tries to shoot you, but misses.
<10P> cast 2 stun m lone
<10P>
You attempt to close the distance!
A Lone Star police officer shoots you.
<9P>
A Lone Star police officer tries to shoot you, but misses.
You attempt to close the distance!
<9P>
A Lone Star police officer tries to shoot you, but misses.
You close the distance and strike!
You fail to bind the mana to your will.
<9P>
A Lone Star police officer tries to shoot you, but misses.
You clash with a Lone Star police officer in melee combat.
You hit a Lone Star police officer.
<9P>
An elf drives through here on his decked-out Yamaha Rapier.
<9P> cast 2 stun m lone
<9P>
You fail to bind the mana to your will.
A Lone Star police officer tries to shoot you, but misses.
<9P>
You clash with a Lone Star police officer in melee combat.
You hit a Lone Star police officer.
<9P>
You clash with a Lone Star police officer in melee combat.
You hit a Lone Star police officer very hard.
A Lone Star police officer tries to shoot you, but misses.
<9P>
A Lone Star police officer arrives from the east.
<9P>
You clash with a Lone Star police officer in melee combat.
You hit a Lone Star police officer very hard.
A Lone Star police officer is stunned, but will probably regain consciousness again.
alias test say alias tested ; cast 2 stun m lone
kill lone
You take a swing at a Lone Star police officer!
<10P>
You close the distance and strike!
You clash with a Lone Star police officer in melee combat.
You barely hit a Lone Star police officer.
A Lone Star police officer tries to shoot you, but misses.
<10P> test
You say, "alias tested "
<10P>
A Lone Star police officer tries to shoot you, but misses.
You fail to bind the mana to your will.
<10P>
You clash with a Lone Star police officer in melee combat.
You hit a Lone Star police officer.
A Lone Star police officer tries to shoot you, but misses.
<10P> test
You clash with a Lone Star police officer in melee combat.
You massacre a Lone Star police officer to small fragments with your hit.
A Lone Star police officer is stunned, but will probably regain consciousness again.
Your stomach growls.
Your mouth is dry.
The rain stops.
You say, "alias tested "
<10P>
A Lone Star police officer falls to the floor unconcious.
A Lone Star police officer is stunned, but will probably regain consciousness again.
from this we see that within some limits set by lag and impatient spellcasters stupidly spamming their cast action spell casters can still start combat with a successful cast,cast within rounds and chose not to cast in later rounds regardless of their actual initiative. as for the phases being to long or short i was able to type out the spell command in full without alias within 2 phases(not shown in logs), if we expect aliases to be used i would recomend discussion in a week about decreasing the phase time by half a second or so as waiting for the next phase before entering my next cast command was suspenseful and my next act was contingent on the results of the previous round.
-----signature-----
My Totem is good to me.
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Title: Member
Posts: 297
Joined: 17 Dec 2005
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Date Posted: Tue Feb 20, 2007 6:20 pm
Subject: Hmm
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My opinion: Mages only have a 'handful' of saving graces..? Thats complete bullshit. Having had a decent night's sleep, i've woken up with a slightly altered view from my last post.
Let me reinterate:
I think that after you cast an offensive spell on someone, succeed or failed alike, it should initiate combat, and initiative should be rolled directly afterwards.
You talk about balance, yet how is an invisible/stealth'd mage sitting right infront of you casting multiple manabolt's at you considered balanced if you're unable to defend yourself in any manner whatsoever?
99% of all spells used are used in the first round of combat, I think manabolt/stunbolt/powerbolt should use the same process as things like flamethrower/lightning bolt/acid stream/clout.
Hit or Miss, it initiates combat the very next round.
Granted any two-bit mage can walk out of CG with 6 spell dice and the ability to mortally wound 80% of the mobs ingame, along with 80% of the playerbase.
Now to respond to the various ideas about the situation:
Beast:
Coding in a initiative roll when casting offensive spells would 1. result in newbie mages resorting to ranged weapons to survive 2. negate invis+stealth for mages when attacking (would be better to code in what Nico said for illusion perception tests) 3. unfairly discriminate against slower races when making a magic user
1: If you're mage has absolutely no other weapons on him other than his magic, you're not going to last horribly long in most situations, that is ofcourse, if you're able to attack your opponent while he stands there doing absolutely nothing in response, and it'd be safe to say that -any- archetype with that kinda of freedom is considered powerful.
My opinion? Lame.
2: How does it negate invis/stealth? You still receive all the bonus tns towards your opponent trying to hit you. And you're not completely invisible to begin with, you're still visible through means of high perception, granted its not coded in properly (or fully, rather).
3: Unfairly? Thats the entire point of making a larger character, they're slow, but make up for the fact that they're... whats the word... Oh, right, f**king bigger and stronger than everyone else. Thats a trade-off you have to make if you want to be a larger race, period, not just with spell slinging.
Davan:
There's also the fact that spellcasters in Shadowrun don't need to gesture or chant arcane incantations. Unless the person you're casting the spell at is currently dual, they shouldn't have the chance to attack the mage before the spell goes off, because they won't even know that you're casting a spell.
But -after- the spell is cast? Succeed or fail, if you notice that the mage infront of you is casting a spell at you, do you just stand there and do absolutely nothing? Ofcourse you don't, you stroll over and snap his neck for trying to fry your ass, but apparently atm your character finds absolutely nothing wrong with being targeted by multiple offensive spells.
That is, until they're hit with a successful manabolt, and then... Well, combat? Combat is moot, initiative is moot, the entire aspect of getting into a 'fight' with a mage is moot. A 'fight' is two people with (loosely) balanced abilities/skills fighting one another, they know who their enemy is, and you know who yours is.
I think the correct term would be 'Slaughter', seeing as thats exactly whats happening, you have absolutely no chance to defend yourself. You have absolutely no idea your opponent is even trying to attack you. (Granted you're not a mage with reflect, and btw, even reflecting spells doesn't initiate combat.)
To sum my idea up:
If you cast a spell on someone, and it succeeds, granted you didn't mort them with it, combat should follow like it normally does.
If you cast a spell on someone, and it fails, and they -notice- (IE perception tests, which conviently are already coded in when casting spells), what then? Combat should follow accordingly.
That, to me, is balance, and isn't that the name of the game we're talking?
-----signature-----
Therefor, your mechanism of material better be sickly, or let your lead spread incredibly quickly.
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Title: Site Admin
Posts: 477
Joined: 03 Apr 2005
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Date Posted: Tue Feb 20, 2007 7:13 pm
Subject:
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With combat spells, it is actually very unlikely you would know where it came from. Manipulation spells atleast, the casting isn't about hurting the target, its about conjuring up the raw element, hitting the target with it is a seperate test.
If either of these spells fail to cast you would have no idea they were even casting a spell, let alone targeting you with them.
Automatically attacking a mage that casts a combat spell on you isn't really right in the sense of how magic works, but if it didn't mages would be even more powerful again.
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Title: Member
Posts: 386
Joined: 21 Feb 2006
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Date Posted: Tue Feb 20, 2007 11:53 pm
Subject:
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As I see it Vilest the big ace right now up a mage's sleeve, that makes him more powerful than any class in the game, is invis/stealth. It flat-out makes him nearly invincible to anybody without Astral. That and the fact that combat doesn't initiate with spellcasting (until said mage gets a crack in) give mages an edge. Take that away, and what do you have left. As it stands, you have close-in fighter with abysmally low stats.
Correct me if I'm wrong. I've never played a mage.
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Title: Fixer
Posts: 206
Joined: 21 May 2006
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Date Posted: Wed Feb 21, 2007 1:31 am
Subject:
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You got it fairly right, Des. Take away the one advantage a magic user has and that is what you get. IMHO, magic users aren't supposed to be getting into hand to hand fights and the like. In a good shadowrun team they stand in the back and sling spells while the Sammie's and Adepts duke it out.
-----signature-----
Insanity is a state of mind, I'm merely the governer.
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Title: Neophyte
Posts: 33
Joined: 03 Jun 2006
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Date Posted: Wed Feb 21, 2007 12:08 pm
Subject:
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This is why I say noticing a mage doing any kind of magic is reason enough to kill them on the spot. How do I know they didnt fail the first time and the next time around I'm lying in a pool of blood.
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Title: Fixer
Posts: 206
Joined: 21 May 2006
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Date Posted: Wed Feb 21, 2007 12:18 pm
Subject:
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Cause your paranoid, Eagle. LOL. Don't make so many enemies and ya won't have to worry about mages casting spells around ya. 
-----signature-----
Insanity is a state of mind, I'm merely the governer.
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Title: Neophyte
Posts: 33
Joined: 03 Jun 2006
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Date Posted: Wed Feb 21, 2007 2:12 pm
Subject:
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Paranoid or just smart? We are supossed to be Shadowrunners.
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Title: Member
Posts: 386
Joined: 21 Feb 2006
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Date Posted: Wed Feb 21, 2007 2:55 pm
Subject:
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Smart? Killing somebody on the spot for something that may have nothing to do with you? Sounds like something that would eventually get you killed, probably sooner rather than later. Of course context is everything-- rules that apply to every conceivable situation are usually useless.
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