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Topic: Initiation Practices |
Title: Site Admin
Posts: 477
Joined: 03 Apr 2005
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Date Posted: Thu Oct 26, 2006 3:16 am
Subject: Initiation Practices
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I'll be the first to admit I'm guilty in regards to initiation randomness. This thread is dedicated to some discussion about the proposed initiation plans.
So far I have this much.
- First initiation available at any time when you have the karma
- Second initiation: Must have more than 100TKE
Any initiations past 2nd require character to have a full description and background entered in.
The gapping for any past 3rd is where I start to come unstuck. TKE, playtime and RP i believe should all play a factor, but not so much of a factor that they become the overbearing reason. Post your comments and ideas below.
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Title: Neophyte
Posts: 25
Joined: 24 Nov 2005
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Date Posted: Thu Oct 26, 2006 3:21 am
Subject:
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A few ideas -
1. Recomendation from Imms for initations over say.. 4. Of course this would require a LOT more visible imm interaction.
2. For higher levels of init (6 or above) might require some sort of knowledge test by an imm about SR and Magic in SR.
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Title: Fixer
Posts: 210
Joined: 02 May 2006
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Date Posted: Thu Oct 26, 2006 4:07 am
Subject: Input. Date Edited: Thu Oct 26, 2006 4:30 am (edits total: 2) Edited By: Play
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Well, as karma is relatively easy to get, I like the idea of initiation as a measure of how much investment one has in a character.
Let's just say that karma acquisition is not a factor, because really, it's not. Even at 50+karma to initiate, I, for instance, could initiate once per week. So it's not about karma.
In my perfect world, it would be automated, and to a schedule.
For example:
1/week for the first 3. Makes people feel good quickly, not a lot of investment.
Inits 4-5, have to wait 2-3 weeks each. Players get to feel acomplished and have some power.
After init 5, wait a month. Players start to have to deal it's gonna take something to get more power, not just a flash in the pan, shortlived character.
After init 8, two months or more. One should have to want it bad enough, wait for it, work for it, suffer over it, etc. High levels shouldn't be easy. Wait is the only real ordeal I can think of that's doable on the mud.
People that will wait, and play for 2 months for an init, I say, are invested in the character. It's long enough that most people will drop off.
With an 'autoinit' command or some such that checks time since last one, or at least some code that keeps track of the last one(s). CHe, I'm guessing it wouldn't be any harder to code that than it is to think about it everyday when people ask for inits. (though I can see how that would be fun.)
Having said all that, I really like how it is now. I like the game of waiting x amount of time, asking, then asking a lot till I get one, then making an appointment in my calendar for 2-3 months out to start asking again.
Except that it depends on Che being on, and saying yes, with no clear rule of how it's gonna work out. But then, that is very Shadowrun.
BAM!
Play
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Title: Fixer
Posts: 210
Joined: 02 May 2006
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Date Posted: Thu Oct 26, 2006 4:12 am
Subject: input II
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How would you measure RP?
How would you measure time on, short of name recognition?
Adding to my previous post, getting an init, logging off for a month, and logging back on to ask for an init isn't part of what I was talking about.
Initiation is a stat, like any other. I love playing on here. I don't RP much, I do tons of autoruns, I like BSing on ooc. I spend a lot of time on. I don't think time on should necessarily be rewarded, but when looking at granting inits, I do think there should be -something- besides "see, my two months is up. Only because it would add an element of fun, or interest, or being in the SR world as opposed to a world of stats.
Tell me if that doesn't make sense, I'll delete the post.
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Title: Site Admin
Posts: 477
Joined: 03 Apr 2005
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Date Posted: Thu Oct 26, 2006 9:57 am
Subject:
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I agree that there should be something other than just time so it actually seems like an achievement and not just "oh, times up". Trying to figure out what is the hard part.
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Title: Neophyte
Posts: 7
Joined: 02 Sep 2006
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Date Posted: Thu Oct 26, 2006 10:06 am
Subject: Init quests
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How about some special quests for higher level initations just like is being done for skills. Higher inits should be hard to come by just like high level skills.
Yes I know this means some work for Che or another imm but it saves hassle in the long run.
That combined with time/karma (maybe nuyen) requirements would be good. With the quests maybe you can build in the time requirement so you can not undertake the next level quest until you have waited a certain time after finishing the last. And if you failed to complete the quest you have to wait a certain time period (less that if you passed) before you can attempt it again.
-= Keikay =-
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Title: Neophyte
Posts: 19
Joined: 19 Sep 2006
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Date Posted: Thu Oct 26, 2006 11:11 am
Subject:
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Hmm.... If I'm reading my SR3 correctly, initiation has been completely removed. It is not in the index, Magic, or Beyond The Shadows sections. In fact, on page 244 (under "Improving Attributes" last par.) it states: "There are some limits to what Good Karma can improve. Characters cannot raise the Attributes of Essence or Magic with Good Karma, even if they have been reduced."
I'm not sure how this applies to initiations but, judging by SR3, initiation has been removed.
I know initiation exists but, I cannot remember what all it intailled. Although, I seem to remember the first part of the innitiation process required finding a group to join to become an initiate. I could easily be wrong, however. Though, that is a thought, in and of itself. Having various factions/groups throughout the city that have differing, perhaps even opposing goals. Requiring intiates to utilise not only their magical properties but skills and perhaps contacts (i.e. who you know ICly) to preform gradually more diverse and difficult initiations.
Indeed opening that door could lead to faction members playing off eachother (icly of course), sometimes aiding and other times disrupting others' goals. Furthing that thought, one could install a system to record faction points (or something) where a player must do "x" odd jobs for the faction to curry favor. Once enough points are obtained a player may try a quest for the faction. Once accepted however, a player loses those points so if they fail, they must start over gaining points.
Perhaps I'm over-reaching here but, my mind is reeling so I may as well finish my thoughts out. "Membership has its privilages". Each group or faction may have influence, items, or some other specialized reason for joining them. At various levels of initiation an initiate could be given access to these. A lvl 1 initate may be able to buy items at Herbies for less, perhaps or have access to a lower level library. And so on.
Anyhow, I'm probably thinking more with my magic rod than my brain so I'll let you decide.
-----signature-----
Look kid, I've had constipation tougher than you.
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Title: Site Admin
Posts: 477
Joined: 03 Apr 2005
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Date Posted: Thu Oct 26, 2006 11:37 am
Subject:
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all the initiation stuff is in magic and the shadows.
By code magic groups just make the initiation easier karma wise, they effect no other part.
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Title: Runner
Posts: 55
Joined: 16 May 2006
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Date Posted: Thu Oct 26, 2006 12:10 pm
Subject:
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Okay, as someone who loves playing mages here's my idea. Some of this goes along with what you say, Che. To get Grade 1 the character should be out of newbie status, just like to be able to be a PK'er and say...a minimum of one week being active. Fairly easy to accomplish. Grade 2 I agree should be just a little harder. Minimum of 100 TKE and have at least one month as a Grade 1 before being able to get Grade 2. For Grade 3, say 200 TKE, at least one or two months as a grade 2, with a full description and background. Grade 4 and up is where I'm hitting a wall. I think RP should be a real factor considered in it though not a requirement unless you make the MUD RP enforced. A possible alternative to that is the player requesting initiation needs a recommendation from say...three other players whom he/she interacts with regularly. Another is that said player needs to go on an IMM designed quest, much like I did to my players on table top, to recieve initiation with the grade of initiation being sought determining the difficulty of the quest. Aside from that the only other thing I can think of is a time and TKE requirement per grade. Anyway, these are my ideas.
Laurana
Seattle Spell Mistress
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Title: Member
Posts: 386
Joined: 21 Feb 2006
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Date Posted: Thu Oct 26, 2006 3:44 pm
Subject:
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Well if we're going to go totally nuts, and introduce like, factions with opposing goals, I'd hate for my little soulless killing machine to be left in the dust. So don't forget about us mundanes, is all I'll say. We're people too... arguably.
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Title: Runner
Posts: 87
Joined: 24 Nov 2005
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Date Posted: Thu Oct 26, 2006 3:49 pm
Subject:
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I hate to stick my oar in, but I'd lean away from tieing inits to background and RP. If this mud is to be RP optional as MOTD states then linking inits to background and RP would make magical characters RP enforced if the player wanted to progress.
Nothing against either background or RP, but I feel they're something you do because you want to not because you have to. The latter sort of spoils things to my mind.
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Title: Neophyte
Posts: 35
Joined: 13 Oct 2006
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Date Posted: Thu Oct 26, 2006 5:46 pm
Subject:
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Well, obviously, I've got two cents, and I'm going to give them to the board. If I've got change coming, let me know.
RP enforcement as a requirement is a catch-20 for mages. What it truly means to have and spend Karma is to have an agenda. Villainous players aptly get Bad Karma to spend on advancement, heroic players get Good Karma, and complete mercs don't gain or spend Karma to advance, just the nuyen to train (which is, granted, more than others would have to pay.) - Per the optional rules. 
Initiaion is highly personal, no matter if it's done with a group or not. The basest levels of initiaion (1-4) are considered generic levels by most magical communities - a basic understanding of magic. After that, however, the character should have some motivation to advance - otherwise they aren't going to have enough focus to make it through the initiation. Yes, this means that just wanting a badder fireball to kill mobs would be a restricion on your character. Wanting to be a Master Magical Duelist, with your name causing wiz-kid gang-bangers to quake when they see you coming, is totally different. My vote is that you should, at the very least, have to post some sort of agenda with the Immortals to advance past 4.
Time Frame: Unless your mage is part of a magical group with strictures on time, I'd say there is already a historical precedent for subsequent initiations. If you've got the Karma, you can initiate - AND - initiation is so mentally (and sometime physically) taxing that, if you're not looking to burn out fast, you might want to take a week off to recover. Keep in mind that some Ordeals may take time of their own - particularly the 'Quest', 'Meditation' , and 'Thesis' Ordeals.
As an aside - some tasks which take long periods: such as alchemy, thesis, ritual magic, grand summons, etc., should perhaps be awarded Karma, due to the out-time of the mage, who is till gaining experience technically by studying their craft. I also think this shouldn't be limited to magic, either, for you chip-cookers and mechanics out there.
Nuyen: If you're self-initiating, no cost, outside of possible Ordeal cost. If you're a part of a magical group, dues are in order but generally aren't too hefty. If you're looking for help but aren't part of a group - pony up the big bucks. Simple chip-truth facts of Shadow life.
The Structures of Limitless Power: Since there is no upper level cap of initiation (The Lord High Protector of England was 21st grade, when last I checked...), initiation can be looked at as a limitless advancement, with only astronomical amounts of Karma to be paid for the next grade. To me, this is all the more reason that a character should be forced a little farther with each grade. If that means mandatory RP - which seems to be a way of life in this "Keep it IC" MUD, I'm all for it. If the character has to push through some epic vision-quest to advance, I'm all for it. Even if it means that the character has to take time off of Running to get that next grade - I'm all for it (Imagine a player seriously considering taking Grade 8 or not, if she has to play a different character for a week.) Before offering limitless advancement to anybody, though, realise that the character him/her self is going to have to make big sacrifices for that power - and that the character will take it seriously, even if you, the player, don't.
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Title: Fixer
Posts: 210
Joined: 02 May 2006
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Date Posted: Thu Oct 26, 2006 6:10 pm
Subject: 4 cents
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Factions and quests and all that would be neat and all, but I don't see it as realistic. Likely wouldn't be the same runs for mages and adepts, which leads to lots of new coding for a small amount of use.
Personally, I like the stat advancement. RP is neat and all, and I'm good at it, but I don't want to come up with a background and an agenda and all that. TT is great for that. It's designed for that character development and immersion. The mud...is very code specific for what is available.
Can't really die, so who really cares. I like that the mud is RP optional. I can test my skills against another char, and I'll die, then he'll die, and back and forth. I personally can't get my brain to imagine and then RP IC Reality around that.
Personally, I like "Times up! GOodie" because I've waited 2+months for an init. That's reward enough for me, and travail enough for me. Don't get me wrong, I'd love to have init autoruns, but I'd rather have a combat rewrite impd..
And if we're going to do much limiting on inits, I vote we should limit the amount of foci mages can use. It just seems wrong seeing a mage 2 weeks out of chargen have a 20 magic because of foci. Too easy.
In summary:
init autoruns great, but too much work, combat rewrite better.
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Title: Fixer
Posts: 210
Joined: 02 May 2006
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Date Posted: Thu Oct 26, 2006 6:13 pm
Subject:
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Mostly I just like watching Dirk and Vile beg for an init for many months at a time. That has to be built into the init rules for that to continue. That's good times.
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Title: Neophyte
Posts: 38
Joined: 23 Oct 2006
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Date Posted: Thu Oct 26, 2006 8:43 pm
Subject:
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I only have the SR3 SB, looks like I need to start collecting side books and doing some reading. The only thing my SB says is that more PPs can be gained by purchasing them 20K each or by inits, but it doesn't say what inits are lol.
EDIT: Are there online versions of the companion books?
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